Pirate PMR usage?

[Panteneman]

Found a shocker tonight, that I had to tell you guys.

I was programming the scanner over the past couple of days, specialising mainly on performing a search from 400-470mhz, and, made note of them and keyed them in my scanner for referance. As they were new stuff I aint found, and needed to update my log.

There is one frequency in particular, that had normal PMR usage during working hours. And, having a scan tonight, didn't expect it to flag up.

While sitting at my post listening to the channel (between 2130-2200hrs), I initially thought it may have been VHF/UHF Ham Band usage - from a local repeater such as MN or MP.

Suprisingly, it was 442.000mhz NFM

There were CB type conversations, with a signal of RST 455. They were saying that there was usage on "X" channel during the day, but it was quiet at night. Sayng that there was some form of security firm running on it (they weren't entirely sure). Another guy was like "well, didn't have those on channel over where I am". And checking various channels, mentioning going to "Channel 16".

There were around 4 users on the frequency, with one of them saying "I am off to North Wales tomorrow, I will have to do a range check on this", with the other guy saying "I'll keep the radio on channel and see how you get on". They were also scanner enthusiasts as they exchanged police frequencies for the North Wales area.

Seriously odd, and pretty fascinating seeing as they're using PMR like CB gear when they very clearly shouldn't do.

Anyone one else experience this? or, encountered illicit PMR usage?

[Transmission1]

It doesn't surprise me at all Mark. I've come across users in various parts of the PMR bands that shouldn't really be there. It's all pretty interesting stuff. I've noticed quite a few people using the american GMRS/FRS channels in my local area. Channels 07 and 16 are in regular use. One of them sounds like a plumbers business but the others are just a bunch of young lads who use them to keep in touch for social arrangements. I'm currently writing an article about Chinese PMR radios that can transmit between 400 and 480 MHz. With them being so cheap on ebay there are bound to be people all over the place!

Keep a log of these unusual transmissions and let us know if you hear anymore!

[troutboy]

Coming to North Wales, don't suppose they mentioned whereabouts. I'll have to get my radio tuned up today and see if i get anything. I'll report back later.

They didn't mention a particular frequency they would be on did they ?

Otherwise i'll just scan about.

[Guzzy]

These chinese imports are causing hell with the airwaves as people buy them and just 'choose a clear frequency'.

The trouble is, up until now the UK radio suppliers have been artificially protecting the airwaves by just not telling people what or who uses which frequency. Each area had its own users and no one knew who was using what frequency.

Except for the scanner fraternity, who have been publishing books on it for years!

Regardless of the scanner crowd, who are mostly just avid 'listeners', most casual or even professional business radio users didn't have a clue who was using the frequency just 12.5 kHz above or below them.

Now that anybody can buy an incredibly cheap wide band transmitter with direct keypad frequency entry, no frequency is safe anymore. The radio retailers can no longer artificially protect the users of the frequency by pre-programming radios and just not telling people who uses which frequencies for what. In fact, it's possibly the institutional secrecy that has lead people to believe the frequencies are unused and therefore fair game for pirate use!

The average price of a single band HAM walkie talkie radio is about ?125 (ish). This gives you open use of all frequencies within the HAM portion of that band. To get extended coverage across the band required opening the radio and voiding your warranty and potentially risking your licence.

The average price of a chinese wide band walkie talkie radio is about ?45 (ish). This gives you open use of all frequencies on that band (within the radios capabilities). No limitations, no guide to what you should and shouldn't do and more importantly - the price point is in direct competition with PMR446 radios, NOT amateur radios!

It's not HAM's, scanner enthusiasts, or businesses buying these in quantity, it's people looking for high performance PMR446 radios!

Aren't businesses paying expensive licence fees to Ofcom for the privilege of using 'private' frequencies. I wonder why it is that Ofcom haven't required HM Customs to stop these coming into the country?

hmmm... I wonder if the communications industry and Ofcoms reluctance to do anything about it might have something to do with persuading businesses that 'analogue' radio communications aren't secure/viable anymore and that they should all upgrade to very expensive digital systems?

Nah, can't be that!

[troutboy]

I had a listen around but never heard nowt, probably a hill in the way somewhere, It is quite up and down around here.

I don't hear many PMR users around here but i think it is a part of radio that's taking off, so you never know.

As regards to Ofcom not doing anyting about what goes on. I know what you mean Jon, as with most decisions made by people these days they always appear to have a hidden ulterior motive.

[Panteneman]

Despite companies going to mobile phones (my job where I work included) and not using PMR, there is still a fair quantity of PMR usage in my area.

I have taken my Yupiteru to work and gone for a wander around the industrial estate for a scan (during the summer when the weather was nicer) and used to hear allsorts. Even more when I was off work and had a tune around with the scanner plumbed into my discone (sometimes used with a pre-amp for extra kick).

When I come home from work, Radio Hams, Aircraft, Ambulances, Fire, and Pubwatch (especially over weekends) usually fire up where I live. Nearly all PMR stuff ceases as most people have gone home. I am certain "The Fuzz" in a nearby town is still using old analogue Motorola radios (a cursory glance while walking past them revealed they weren't using TETRA stuff while in said nearby town over the weekend) and I've recieved stuff between 451-453mhz. Anyway....

The frequency I found DOES have a user during working hours. It was highly weird and a lucky coincidence 442.000mhz NFM flagged up with the rogue transmission. They (whoever it is) has multi channel radios that don't have CTCSS or trunked system. So, it clearly pays to have a search around irrespective of what times of day.

I totally agree with Jon, Offcom appears not to give a stuff and it's ridiculously easy to get any radio you want (a certain auction site selling tonnes of them) to do whatever the hell you like with. So these rogue transmissions are going to be on the increase, and people aren't aware of the possible rammifications and hassles they could be causing by indiscriminately transmitting anywhere that they please. There was a well documented example in a popular UK radio mag where a taxi firm was transmitting unwittingly on military airband freqencies!!

Anyhow, I shall keep you all posted if I here any more.

[Transmission1]

Mark, I've found this thread most interesting since it confirms what I have suspected for a long time. I sat down and thought about the many thousands of PMR/Walkie Talkies that are sold on Ebay every week and that fact that they must be getting used somewhere and not necessarily by radio amateurs!
Take a look at my latest article:

Chinese PMR Radios - A Buyers Guide:
http://www.transmission1.co.uk/index.ph ... cle&sid=92

I've tried to get a brief overview of each popular model and I've added hyperlinks to the various manufacturers websites. As with most low cost items the quality does vary somewhat but with sets starting from ?15 I think we can all see how they could cause the rise in ilicit usage.

[Panteneman]

Cool stuff re. the link for these radios.

The moral here for the scanner is not just to go through your channels in the scanner that you defined for yourself, but have good regular searches around the bands for anything out of the ordinary. Which, is precisely what makes scanning a really cool part of the radio hobby.

Despite eBay selling these radio's, this could have possibly gone on for years.

For example, my works once used Key and Tait radio running on around 160mhz. There was a base station that had something like 40 possible channels, and how they worked was someone would "blip" through and the their channel number would flag up, and vice versa. The conversations could only carry on for around 90 seconds and then they would "time out", where you would then "re-access" them by sending the call "blip" and opening the transmission again. It was running on a directional beam that was veritcally opposed, which will probably be accessing a repeater of some form, over in Winter Hill direction. Definetly not a tele aerial, as the elements were too long for TV frequencies.

Getting back to my point (after my mini ramble, LoL) they just "slung" these radios when we moved premises and used mobile phones, and they even offered them to me or a couple of the other guys in work - a couple of the engineers in my works were radio hams and thought about turning them into 2m/70cm sets. Nobody eventually took them though.

For arguments sake, even in this instance somebody could have fished through the office detritus and took them for themselves and use them unconverted with the correct resonant antenna.

You should see the masses of PMR radios for sale on eBay often sold erronerously as CB radio that belonged to liquidated companies. And there is big business for companies to convert them for Ham Radio use.

[Panteneman]

Greetings,

I was having a quick scan on the 31st Oct, and low and behold those guys running PMR gear illegitimately were on (around 2030-2100hrs UTC). I was checking out my newly purchased JIM M75 scanner pre-amp at the time.

Also, they were running on a different frequency:

441.925mhz NFM

This frequency DEFINETLY does have a user during normal week day working hours (I think it's some sort of delivery firm or skip hire). The difference this time, was that the group (think aroud 3 users, one definetly mobile) were using repeater access as they sounded similar to VHF/UHF Radio Ham comms.

They transmissions were distinguished this time by a "timed pip" that occured when the user finished transmittting and then the repeater closed. The mobile user in the group was boarderline going in and out of range as his signal suffered from flutter and was sometimes failing to come through. The home base user was saying that "your signal is wavering mate, it's not quite accesing the repeater".

Stupidly, while tuning around I thought I had found another 70cm repeater until I noticed that obviously the 70cm Ham Band ends at 440mhz. And I sat there blankly looking at the display, listening, until I identified the accent of the Home Base user, that called himself "Bob" - and then my mind finally clicked. ](*,)

To anyone in the North West with a scanner that lives within range of GB3MN, or MP, and lives around the Ormskirk/Wigan/Southport and surrouding areas (St Helens etc) tune around just past 70cm Ham Band and keep your antenna's, scanners, and ear's peeled.

[5thElement]

Will do im in Liverpool so i dunno if i'll pick them up though, will give it a try. When you say your mind finally clicked, what do you mean? lol

p.s
Do you know GB3MP is bust right now? they're waiting on getting it fixed, not entirely sure whats wrong with it myself though, spoke to someone on the group who runs it and last iheard they thought the output might be knackered, but they do have spare parts.

[Andy]

Here in Manchester, there are two people who use 165.2375 for local chats, actually using the local pmr repeater! To make matters worse, one of them is said to be an Amateur (I know his M3 call, but I won't reveal it here).
I've heard them talk about growing pot, stolen property etc, so they are a right pair of villains.
According to a friend of mine, they have been reported but no action has been taken so far.

[Panteneman]

Will do im in Liverpool so i dunno if i'll pick them up though, will give it a try. When you say your mind finally clicked, what do you mean? lol

What I meant was that my mind finally clicked, was that I was dumbly sitting there thinking I found another 70cm repeater. When, in fact it wasnt lol. The frequencies have a repeater link and I have heard the legitimate users in the Merseyside area during daytime on Saturdays

So, when these guys are accessing repeaters they will defo kick in. Whatever the repeater is, the legit users have been driving to as far as Warrington and Runcorn and surrounding areas. It covers a wide range.

p.sDo you know GB3MP is bust right now? they're waiting on getting it fixed, not entirely sure whats wrong with it myself though, spoke to someone on the group who runs it and last i heard they thought the output might be knackered, but they do have spare parts.

No, didn't know that dude. Cheers for the bonus info. MP is a bit stronger on my Yupiteru scanner than MN. Heard that there was a 70cm repeater in Preston somewhere. Is that still running? I can recieve LI and another couple of 70cm ones I can't remember off the top of my head. My fave VHF/UHF transmissions are the SSB portions of VHF/UHF used by amateurs. 6meter especially so, if I went for an M3 I would love 6m SSB gear.

[Panteneman]

Here in Manchester, there are two people who use 165.2375 for local chats, actually using the local pmr repeater! To make matters worse, one of them is said to be an Amateur (I know his M3 call, but I won't reveal it here).
I've heard them talk about growing pot, stolen property etc, so they are a right pair of villains.
According to a friend of mine, they have been reported but no action has been taken so far.

Cool, another frequency to check out. I can sometimes pick up Manchester area stuff. The coverage from being a repeater is bound to be heard where I live.

It amazes me how thick people are re. radio and who can hear them. I hear PMR446 users occasionally blip through on my old handsets I sold (I since have bought Tevion ones from Aldi with CTCSS and charger docks, really smart) talking about confidential and illicit stuff.

In one instance, amazingly, I was listening to the Muppet Band FM allocation for CB one night on the scanner. And found a couple of guys speaking of herb smoking, their local dealer and so on. As a stunning coincidence, I caught them talking about my brother in law over the air!! Just because the channels appear quiet doesn't mean there is some radio voyeur out there listening in.

The best irony I love is the cordless home phone that isn't DECT equipped. With a decent antenna, other peoples phone conversations can be picked up from upto 2 miles away

The irony being even more prevalent when one side of the conversation is a user on a GSM 900/1800 mobile (basically, all modern mobile phones), that is usually encrypted.

But, they are revealed perfectly clear on someone's cordless for all the world to earwig to with a scanner tuned to the correct frequencies (obviously, a mobile phone user would need to call someone they know who has a cordless phone to peform this mockery).

I wouldn't touch a cordless phone with a 10ft barge pole

Note: Panteneman does not condone tuning into cordless phones via a scanner, or any illegitimate radio use.

[Guzzy]

Note: Panteneman does not condone tuning into cordless phones via a scanner, or any illegitimate radio use.

Liar liar, pants on fire!

Note: 2H2UZ does not condone claiming people are dishonest or falsely claiming that their clothing is on fire.

[troutboy]

After reading your post about illegal usage Panteneman I decided to have a listen just above 70 cm as you said. By the way i, myself live within range of the repeater you mentioned.
Anyway I've just picked up what sounds like a commercial business on 441.150 mhz NFM.
Don't know if any of you fellas' can get em. Report back please.