Can I run a temporary repeater?

[beltane]

I've been researching this for a while now and I keep getting conflicting information. Specifically, could I make a temporary repeater out of something like a TYT-UV8000 that would only be used for a local or private event? I know this sort of thing gets done all the time officially, but the thing I'm specifically wanting to know is whether I can set up such a thing for the private use of me and my mates on a temporary basis without a bunch of band lurkers butting in to chastise us for dabbling in Satan worship and "illegal" radio practice.

A couple of years ago I was messing around with my TYT-UV8000 and another radio, crossbanding into a local repeater (just to see how things like this worked) and I immediately got some angry old Band Police duffer shouting at me that it was "illegal" for me to be doing so with my lowly M7-class license.

OK then, I've been trying to get my head around it ever since and basically most of the "official" information on the subject is, as usual, contrary and confusing. Basically my instinct is just do it anyway and who cares whether OFCOM thinks it's OK or not because they're a bunch of pathetic clowns anyway, but I would like to know the real deal out of curiosity.

[Kilo-Golf]

Quick reply - Only a full license holder can apply for a Repeater, even then this has to be accessed by a committee which is a long and fairly complex process. With most requests being turned down.

I would either go for a license free option using a parrot repeater or something like Zello.

If you want an easier option try one of the digital modes such as DMR, where you can find a timeslot in some peace where the band police are spread more thinly.

[beltane]

But wouldn't applying to operate a repeater imply allowing public access to the repeater, or at least club use? My idea is to run a small, low power repeater temporarily for only specific users for a limited time of operation, say over a weekend in a remote location, such as a mountain hike camp etc.

I suppose what I'm postulating is a private group of people scattered about over an area with low power radios, like for instance programmed WLN KD-C1's, being used to access a single 5-10w HT in crossband mode at a central location.

In reality there's nothing stopping me from just doing it anyway and just not telling anybody we're running a crossband HT as a repeater. Nobody would even know. If everybody in the group were running low power handhelds into the repeater pretty much nobody anywhere would even know it and the HT being used as the repeater would not be technically doing anything amiss. I would be being operated by licensed operators at allowed power. It's no different than a bunch of people passing one radio around between them all. So long as each operator is licensed it doesn't matter who uses the HT.

I don't think there's anything in the convoluted OFCOM spaghetti that specifically forbids me personally from accessing my 10w crossband HT via a low power radio. If I use 1w to access my own 10w radio in crossband mode it's absolutely no different than me just talking into the 10w HT directly.

[LondonCbRadio]

Just keep in mind most hams are grasses and won't allow you to do nothing they think is against the rules.

[beltane]

Ah, but nobody would know if all they could hear was the repeater HT. From an outside earwigging they would have no way of knowing if it was ten people using one radio or ten people using ten identical radios.

I think it's just one of those grey areas where OFCOM haven't kept up with technology so they have no real grasp of crossband repeater HT's and their potentials. I can't see how accessing a crossband HT via another radio is any different than just speaking directly into it.

However. yes I do know that if I actually did ever say I'm accessing one radio via another on a lowly M7-class license many old gammons would wet their diapers and race to fire off angry letters in green ink to the proper authorities.

[DX-Digger]

Are you saying all users will be radio Hams and give their callsigns or are you saying none licenced stations using an illegal repeater on the Ham bands?
Because Radio hams are very protective of their allocated spectrum and would never turn a blind eye on an illegal repeater being used by pirate stations.
I guarantee they would record the offence and pass on relevent info to OFCOM.
Its up to you what you decide to do, but are you willing to lose your licence and have equipment confiscated?
Plus the fact that you have made a post on a public forum suggesting that you possibly intend to operate illegally in contradiction to you ham radio licence. Kind of a silly move to make. But hey ho. Lead on McDuff

[Ant]

What you're proposing wouldn't be allowed. It would become apparent what's going on. Many people have a scan of the bands, the activity they'd be listening to would make it obvious.

With pirate activity etc, you couldn't blame someone for reporting it, as why should everyone risk losing something just because of the few flouting the rules?

[Mitch]

Using ham bands and callsigns is a bit silly, and likely to attract the wrong sort of attention. My suggestion would be for repeater output on PMR446 and input on say hang glider/microlight channels on 143 using handles and ctcss, then anyone listening will think it's normal chatter. Just a thought.

I did cross banding once with a Chinese quad band radio, from 27 to 446 and back and it worked well, just for educational purposes of course

[grafter]

Yes, Ofcom are no longer fit for purpose as a policing body of things RF. The only chance of getting them out do something is if you're blocking one of LHRs critical frequencies, anything else will be logged as intel and case closed. That includes report of sprogging Band II pirates interfering with Coastguard comms on 156.0MHz, guess how I know!

So I'd say do what you want but to the best of your ability, keep it clean, keep it within the etiquette of AR and it'll be fine. Even if the old fart band police clock you the regulator is so under funded and under staffed there's zero chance of them following up any report.

[paulears]

OFCOM are perfectly fit for purpose in bands where radio is important. Hobby radio is hardly worth 'protecting'. Interestingly though, I've been reading the licence terms and conditions in my licence. Repeater is not a word contained in it any longer, and there are clauses that do suggest a temporary repeater could be set up - as long as it was done by somebody with a licence as a temporary location, and the location identified Avery 30 minutes. Parot style repeaters are covered by the recording and replay section and as long as they are intended for specific people, as the temporary repeater idea suggests it would be, that is OK.

Other sections may apply - like interference, but that's easily sorted.
clause 7(6) requires the output frequency needs to be monitored.
10(1) about unattended operation won't apply
nor will others in section 10 to do with unattended operation as it will be attended.
11(4) suggests that direct or forwarded messages to a group are fine.
14(1) allows recording and retransmitting - which could perhaps be argued as what a repeater does?
There is mention of making sure callsigns identify people, which would appear to be accurate.

My reading is that there is no specific ban on talkthrough as long as the transmitter is identified. The snag, perhaps could be that the transmitter would need to be identified - so if I was running the repeater - I'd have to send my callsign regularly or maybe even each over? 20wpm CW is pretty quick, but very annoying. Maybe it would be sufficient for the person running the repeater, in or cross band, to say regularly - this is GZZZ replaying messages from Cairn Hill - every now and again. the callsigns of the users would then seem to be within the licence terms. The new licence has very few absolute no-nos, and it does seem very open to interpretation. Years ago, there was a section on how beacons were out without permission and the same for repeaters, but now those bits are missing.

Based on what I have read in another document, though - they ARE banned. The Interface Requirements seem to be different. 6.1 states that repeaters and certain beacons require frequency coordination, but also say UNATTENDED - so a repeater controlled by a person, with an off switch would seem to permit it?

I reckon the wording could allow an attended repeater to be perfectly acceptable if the local licence police were upset.
P

[LeakyFeeder]

Jus do it... in between name callin n slaggin folk off its clear you answered yer own question

[beltane]

Yes, I see it's the usual blah blah blah from the assorted rabble of radio experts. Whenever I ask an innocent question on some aspect of radio the answers I get usually fall into one of two categories:


A: "NO! IT IS ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN AND I WILL TELL THE AUTHORITIES AND YOU WILL BE SHOT!"


B: "Actually, OFCOM's own information is incomprehensible, contradictory and unfathomable, so who knows? I guess so long as you aren't interfering with something it's probably fine."



I will, as always, go with B.

[DX-Digger]

so if you knew what the catagory of answers you would get when you made the post, then it obviously wasnt an innocent question then was it.
Either way just do what you want, as your mind was obviously made up even before you asked the question.
The fact that you refer to us who actually bothered to answer your question as a rabble of radio experts, then obviously you dont really care what answers you recieved, especially if they didnt tie in with "Im gonna do it anyway"
So why bother to ask?
Just remember that we are secondary users of some bands, and if the primary users dont like what you are doing they may complain, then OFCOM would get involved.

You could actually contact OFCOM and ask them but I bet you wouldnt dare because you know what answer you would get.
And that is that foundation or Intermediate licence holders are not allowed to pass 3rd party traffic i.e other users.
But hey non if this matters because you will just do it anyway and to hell with the consequences.
This has just been a pointless thread really.
Ahh well back to the Radio.

[Ant]

Just remember that we are secondary users of some bands, and if the primary users dont like what you are doing they may complain, then OFCOM would get involved.

That's the thing that a lot of people forget. It's likely something that the OP isn't at all aware of.

[Buick Mackane]

Just a quick reminder to keep the thread civil or it will be locked