You're right of course. The 11m band was a poor choice for a short-range local communication service (which is what CB is) but the 'powers that be' at the time didn't have the foresight to look at UHF as a far better alternative; together with that the emerging 'CB population' had already adopted 26/27Mhz as CB by using imported US rigs, so really the then government simply legalised 27MHz by default really, they didn't have much choice.
UHF would have provided far cleaner, more efficient local communication as indeed PMR446 is now, albeit within its current severe limitations and lack of range due to the inefficient rubber ducks and hand-held-only law.
A 40CH system on 446MHz (the 67cm band!) with 0.5w base stations and little dipole antennas on the chimney as well as 0.5w hand-helds.......now that would be a system worth having, wouldn't it?
Sorry, I'm preaching to the converted here.........
Good luck on Sunday to all who are going to have a go anyway.
163GW.
[Split from 446 DX Sunday] 446MHz/27MHz Discussion
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163GW
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jazzsinger
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The 11m band was a poor choice for a short-range local communication service (which is what CB is) but the 'powers that be' at the time didn't have the foresight to look at UHF as a far better alternative;
how can you say the powers that be didn't have the foresight to look at uhf,they legalised 934 mhz uhf cb in 1981 at the same time they legalised 27 mhz cb,it was nothing to do with the powers that be that uhf cb never took off,it was down to the high price of manufacturing uhf equipment coupled with the outrageous selling prices of such equipment at the time,not to mention the lack of range the 934 mhz equipment offered against 27 mhz cb equipment that killed uhf cb stone dead,also 934 mhz cb wasn't as limited in antennas or handset only milliwatt pmr radios of today.people want to broaden their horizons and communicate further than a couple of poxy miles.
The 11m band was a poor choice for a short-range local communication service (which is what CB is)
not when there is propagation running it ain't,its one of the best bands on hf for dx with many different modes of propagation available,absolutely no different to 10m except that the users aren't so boring.dx'ing on 11m was going on long before the uk government was forced into legalising cb in this country by massive pressure being piled on them by thousands of am/ssb 11m users.to say they legalised it by default through lack of choice is untrue,had that been the case then fcc standard am/ssb would have been legalised,they had plenty of choice when they chose a system incompatible with the rest of the world,deliberately in my opinion to keep citizens of the uk from freely contacting people around the globe,they new exactly what they were doing,the whole wireless telegraphy act is based on stopping freedom of speech and stems from paranoia post world war 2.paranoia that still exists today in the monitoring of internet and all other forms of communication and justified under the crusaders banner of a war on terror.terror they provoked when they invaded other countries to steal their riches.
even the amateur fraternity who unbelievably think they are radio's chosen ones are denied freedom of speech in many ways by their license condition,ffs they aren't even allowed to laugh.they boast how many bands they have at their disposal but are too ignorant too realise most are only 100 khz wide,i've seen americans splatter further than that.if it wasn't for the snobbery in amateur radio and also in the elitest crowd on ssb cb radio and we had all got together and pressed the government for sensible bandwidth and power levels we all might have a hobby that was flourishing instead of fighting between ourselves over what can best be described as crap allocations of frequency,power and antenna restrictions while the government sells off huge chunks of the spectrum to poxy businesses that rip us all off.by now cbers would probably have 26-28 mhz all mode with sensible power levels and hams would have had decent bands with far fewer restrictions.instead we're all still fighting and still using basically the same crap allocations we had 30 years ago,very little has changed except the powers that be have got very rich indeed from the rf spectrum.thats the reality.
UHF NEVER HAS BEEN AND NEVER WILL BE AS POPULAR AS 11M DUE TO THE LACK OF DISTANCE,CB MAY HAVE BEEN IDEALISED AS SHORT RANGE COMMUNICATIONS BY ITS INVENTORS IN THE USA, BUT AS SOON AS PEOPLE REALISED PROPAGATION AND DX WAS POSSIBLE IT WAS NEVER EVER GOING TO BE UTILISED TO THOSE IDEALS.
how can you say the powers that be didn't have the foresight to look at uhf,they legalised 934 mhz uhf cb in 1981 at the same time they legalised 27 mhz cb,it was nothing to do with the powers that be that uhf cb never took off,it was down to the high price of manufacturing uhf equipment coupled with the outrageous selling prices of such equipment at the time,not to mention the lack of range the 934 mhz equipment offered against 27 mhz cb equipment that killed uhf cb stone dead,also 934 mhz cb wasn't as limited in antennas or handset only milliwatt pmr radios of today.people want to broaden their horizons and communicate further than a couple of poxy miles.
The 11m band was a poor choice for a short-range local communication service (which is what CB is)
not when there is propagation running it ain't,its one of the best bands on hf for dx with many different modes of propagation available,absolutely no different to 10m except that the users aren't so boring.dx'ing on 11m was going on long before the uk government was forced into legalising cb in this country by massive pressure being piled on them by thousands of am/ssb 11m users.to say they legalised it by default through lack of choice is untrue,had that been the case then fcc standard am/ssb would have been legalised,they had plenty of choice when they chose a system incompatible with the rest of the world,deliberately in my opinion to keep citizens of the uk from freely contacting people around the globe,they new exactly what they were doing,the whole wireless telegraphy act is based on stopping freedom of speech and stems from paranoia post world war 2.paranoia that still exists today in the monitoring of internet and all other forms of communication and justified under the crusaders banner of a war on terror.terror they provoked when they invaded other countries to steal their riches.
even the amateur fraternity who unbelievably think they are radio's chosen ones are denied freedom of speech in many ways by their license condition,ffs they aren't even allowed to laugh.they boast how many bands they have at their disposal but are too ignorant too realise most are only 100 khz wide,i've seen americans splatter further than that.if it wasn't for the snobbery in amateur radio and also in the elitest crowd on ssb cb radio and we had all got together and pressed the government for sensible bandwidth and power levels we all might have a hobby that was flourishing instead of fighting between ourselves over what can best be described as crap allocations of frequency,power and antenna restrictions while the government sells off huge chunks of the spectrum to poxy businesses that rip us all off.by now cbers would probably have 26-28 mhz all mode with sensible power levels and hams would have had decent bands with far fewer restrictions.instead we're all still fighting and still using basically the same crap allocations we had 30 years ago,very little has changed except the powers that be have got very rich indeed from the rf spectrum.thats the reality.
UHF NEVER HAS BEEN AND NEVER WILL BE AS POPULAR AS 11M DUE TO THE LACK OF DISTANCE,CB MAY HAVE BEEN IDEALISED AS SHORT RANGE COMMUNICATIONS BY ITS INVENTORS IN THE USA, BUT AS SOON AS PEOPLE REALISED PROPAGATION AND DX WAS POSSIBLE IT WAS NEVER EVER GOING TO BE UTILISED TO THOSE IDEALS.
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163GW
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Phew! There really is no need to get so upset! For ordinary people who just want simple short range communication for keeping in touch with family and friends etc, then a proper UHF system on 446 would be far superior to 27MHz. With no nuisance interference from SSB and noisy Europeans, it would simply be a far more efficient and reliable local service.
Not everyone who uses radio is interested in DXing after all - only some of us are.
Anyway, everybody getting ready for the 446 DX Sunday tomorrow?
163GW
Not everyone who uses radio is interested in DXing after all - only some of us are.
Anyway, everybody getting ready for the 446 DX Sunday tomorrow?
163GW
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Guzzy
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... and a 446MHz based LOCAL RANGE CB system can't co-exist with a 27MHz CB system, why exactly?
27MHz is of limited use as a LOCAL CB system because of random propagation. That's not to say we shouldn't use 27MHz for local and distance (when propagation allows) working, but why on earth not have BOTH, just like the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (as well as a few non English speaking countries)?
I'm not interested in giving anything up, I want to know whay we can't have BOTH?!?
Please allow me to point you to one of my previous posts:
27MHz is of limited use as a LOCAL CB system because of random propagation. That's not to say we shouldn't use 27MHz for local and distance (when propagation allows) working, but why on earth not have BOTH, just like the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (as well as a few non English speaking countries)?
I'm not interested in giving anything up, I want to know whay we can't have BOTH?!?
Please allow me to point you to one of my previous posts:
UHF CB Frequencies
These frequencies are currently legally used by licence-exempt PMR446 radios - both analogue (first eight) and digital (last eight).
Using a Chinese import radio or re-programmed business PMR radio at 5W (or higher) on these frequencies is currently illegal.
In theory, if you wish to break the law and use higher power radios on these frequencies, the only people you may be interfering with is PMR446 users. All of which are licence-exempt and have accepted that:
"Because the [PMR446] frequencies are shared, you may experience interference and channel sharing problems if there are many other PMR 446 users locally. You may be able to reduce these problems by changing your frequency, CTCSS tone and/or DCS code (see Section 5). PMR 446 is not suitable for safety-of-life use, or for users who need access to frequencies at particular locations and times.
As a licence-exempt service, PMR 446 is unprotected. Ofcom (the Office of Communications) will not get involved in interference or channel-sharing disputes between users."
Source: Ofcom PDF
The difference in signal strength between a 0.5W PMR446 radio and a 5W converted PMR radio (or Chinese import) is very difficult to discern unless you are actually standing with them as they transmit with measuring equipment. Anyone listening to the signals will be hard pushed to tell the difference between a nearby PMR446 radio operating at 0.5W and a further away PMR radio operating at 5W. The main difference will be extended range on the 5W radios, due to the increased power and better antennas.
One word of warning, in a situation with lots of nearby 0.5W PMR446 users, the 5W radios WILL blot out nearby PMR446 users.
UHF CB Channels and Frequencies used
Ch. 01 .... 446.00625 MHz NFM* (PMR446 Ch. 01 )
Ch. 02 .... 446.01875 MHz NFM* (PMR446 Ch. 02 )
Ch. 03 .... 446.03125 MHz NFM* (PMR446 Ch. 03 )
Ch. 04 .... 446.04376 MHz NFM* (PMR446 Ch. 04 )
Ch. 05 .... 446.05625 MHz NFM* (PMR446 Ch. 05 )
Ch. 06 .... 446.06875 MHz NFM* (PMR446 Ch. 06 )
Ch. 07 .... 446.08125 MHz NFM* (PMR446 Ch. 07 )
Ch. 08 .... 446.09375 MHz NFM* (PMR446 Ch. 08 )
Ch. 09 .... 446.10625 MHz NFM* (DPMR446 Ch. 01 )
Ch. 10 .... 446.11875 MHz NFM* (DPMR446 Ch. 02 )
Ch. 11 .... 446.13125 MHz NFM* (DPMR446 Ch. 03 )
Ch. 12 .... 446.14376 MHz NFM* (DPMR446 Ch. 04 )
Ch. 13 .... 446.15625 MHz NFM* (DPMR446 Ch. 05 )
Ch. 14 .... 446.16875 MHz NFM* (DPMR446 Ch. 06 )
Ch. 15 .... 446.18125 MHz NFM* (DPMR446 Ch. 07 )
Ch. 16 .... 446.19375 MHz NFM* (DPMR446 Ch. 08 )
NFM* is 12.5kHz with narrow voice deviation, anything else will bleed over adjacent channels.
To use these frequencies, you need a radio that can be programmed with 6.25kHz steps (not 12.5kHz steps).
Please remember that it's currently not legal to use these frequencies in this way in the UK. Also, the speed limit on motorways is 70mph.
Source: www.ukcb.org
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163GW
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Yes, you're quite right. I'm personally not a CB user and have no interest in it, but I do use my PMR446 handie's daily for local chatting. It would be more convenient if home-based transceivers with external antennas were allowed along with a wider range of operating channels.
There needn't be an increase in the power levels either, 0.5w into a simple dipole would give quite good coverage on 446Mhz, it works well enough on the 70cm band in my experience, so 67cm would provide the same range at similar power outputs, with base to base being even more effective than base to handheld.
Maybe this will develop as time goes on perhaps, I don't know, but it would be a very effective local communication service, wouldn't it?
163GW
There needn't be an increase in the power levels either, 0.5w into a simple dipole would give quite good coverage on 446Mhz, it works well enough on the 70cm band in my experience, so 67cm would provide the same range at similar power outputs, with base to base being even more effective than base to handheld.
Maybe this will develop as time goes on perhaps, I don't know, but it would be a very effective local communication service, wouldn't it?
163GW
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jazzsinger
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i dont see how 500mw into a dipole can be classed as an effective local communication medium,unless you live in a country as flat as the netherlands with absolutely no buildings to attenuate signals,by the time you take cable losses into account your closer too 250mw erp.a baby monitor would transmit further.
Yes, you're quite right. I'm personally not a CB user and have no interest in it
why? its far more efficient for your stated requirements than what your proposing,its not as if you don't get interference from other users on pmr,cb's are readily available and cheap.in fact why not just free up part of 10m as it is rarely used anyway,would serve the same purpose that 11m does,increase range and wouldn't have as much ssb or european interference seeing as amateurs don't utilise the band as much as cb'ers do.would be easy enough to convert old cb's too 10m.or does it just come down to the basic fact that most amateurs see cb'ers as being below them?
curiosity is killing me.ironic really when about 75% of them are rarely off 11m ssb,i call that tweed jacketed hypocrisy.slag off cb at the ham club then run home and fire the hf set up on 27.555 because there's no-one of any interest to talk to on the ham bands and its the only way to get a honest radio report instead of all that 5/9 old man crap.i know because i've been to ham clubs,seen it done, then heard the same people on 11m not long later.thats in between times when they're not stabbing their club mates in the back and running to ofcom complaing and writing letters anonymously to them.and the reason behind it all,9 times out of 10 plain old JEALOUSY,someone has a better signal,rig,antenna,location,contacts or whatever than they have.seen it all before.
Yes, you're quite right. I'm personally not a CB user and have no interest in it
why? its far more efficient for your stated requirements than what your proposing,its not as if you don't get interference from other users on pmr,cb's are readily available and cheap.in fact why not just free up part of 10m as it is rarely used anyway,would serve the same purpose that 11m does,increase range and wouldn't have as much ssb or european interference seeing as amateurs don't utilise the band as much as cb'ers do.would be easy enough to convert old cb's too 10m.or does it just come down to the basic fact that most amateurs see cb'ers as being below them?
curiosity is killing me.ironic really when about 75% of them are rarely off 11m ssb,i call that tweed jacketed hypocrisy.slag off cb at the ham club then run home and fire the hf set up on 27.555 because there's no-one of any interest to talk to on the ham bands and its the only way to get a honest radio report instead of all that 5/9 old man crap.i know because i've been to ham clubs,seen it done, then heard the same people on 11m not long later.thats in between times when they're not stabbing their club mates in the back and running to ofcom complaing and writing letters anonymously to them.and the reason behind it all,9 times out of 10 plain old JEALOUSY,someone has a better signal,rig,antenna,location,contacts or whatever than they have.seen it all before.
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Guzzy
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Interesting ... post .... George, but I'm not sure what it has to do with people using PMR446 frequencies AS WELL AS CB frequencies? 
Some people turn on their CB radio and try to use it for local chatting, maybe with a mate down the road, or perhaps with a group of friends when out on the road. In some cases, these people suffer from interference, either from the local muppets or even from distant stations due to SSB or AM/FM propagation. 27MHz CB isn't the solution for everybody.
In the same context. 446MHz (PMR446) isn't necessarily the perfect solution for anybody wishing to work 'local' contacts. As George points out, UHF signals suffer from attenuation due to trees, buildings and pretty much any other big hard/solid objects between the transmitter and receiver. It doesn't stop it being a good local "citizens band" type system.
I've used UHF for car to car comms and it works pretty well, even over a reasonable distance and over undulating terrain, if you have 5W (or more) and a decent antenna on the roof of your vehicle.
There are pros and cons to both systems, which is why it's nice to be able to choose.
Some people turn on their CB radio and try to use it for local chatting, maybe with a mate down the road, or perhaps with a group of friends when out on the road. In some cases, these people suffer from interference, either from the local muppets or even from distant stations due to SSB or AM/FM propagation. 27MHz CB isn't the solution for everybody.
In the same context. 446MHz (PMR446) isn't necessarily the perfect solution for anybody wishing to work 'local' contacts. As George points out, UHF signals suffer from attenuation due to trees, buildings and pretty much any other big hard/solid objects between the transmitter and receiver. It doesn't stop it being a good local "citizens band" type system.
I've used UHF for car to car comms and it works pretty well, even over a reasonable distance and over undulating terrain, if you have 5W (or more) and a decent antenna on the roof of your vehicle.
There are pros and cons to both systems, which is why it's nice to be able to choose.
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163GW
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Errmmm...I'm a bit confused too! 
I'm just suggesting that a better 446Mhz allocation would be a very effective form of local radio communication, and all I'm reading from George is something about his personal problems with some radio amateurs or something or other? I don't know quite what that's got to do with a 446Mhz discussion. Very confusing indeed.
As regards the other PMR channls on 446, the digital ones that is, are they digital transmit only, or can analogue be used as well? I ask because the only PMR446 sets I have seen have only 8 channels on them.
163GW.
I'm just suggesting that a better 446Mhz allocation would be a very effective form of local radio communication, and all I'm reading from George is something about his personal problems with some radio amateurs or something or other? I don't know quite what that's got to do with a 446Mhz discussion. Very confusing indeed.
As regards the other PMR channls on 446, the digital ones that is, are they digital transmit only, or can analogue be used as well? I ask because the only PMR446 sets I have seen have only 8 channels on them.
163GW.
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Guzzy
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The additional eight (or sixteen - you can choose to use either) channels are purely for the new digital radios (of which, there is STILL only one single model available).
Using these frequencies as an additional eight analogue channels with programmable UHF radios is completely illegal in the UK.
So is driving at 71mph in a 70mph zone.
Using these frequencies as an additional eight analogue channels with programmable UHF radios is completely illegal in the UK.
So is driving at 71mph in a 70mph zone.
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Guzzy
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Just to be clear:Guzzy wrote:The additional eight (or sixteen - you can choose to use either) channels
Analogue PMR446 radios have access to 8 channels (446.00625 - 446.09375), spaced at 12.5Khz. These are the original eight channels that PMR446 users have always had access to.
Digital PMR446 radios have access to the original analogue channels in analogue mode only, and they also have access to an additional set of channels - Either 8 or 16 channels that can only be used in the digital mode. 446.10625 - 446.19375, spaced at either 12.5KHz (8 channels) or 6.25 KHz (16 channels).
So a new digital radio can have either 8 analogue and 8 digital, or 8 analogue and 16 digital.
There you go, clear as mud.
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163GW
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Guzzy
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Panteneman
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it's this one found by clicking here
Speaking to people in foreign lands, with various configurations of copper wire in various strange shapes - my friends think I'm committing acts of witchcraft...
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Guzzy
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It's the Icom IC-F4029SDR163GW wrote:Thanks for the information Guzzy. What model is available because it sounds interesting, and does the digitised signal have any effect on range do you think?
The range isn't effected at all.
Digital is 100% perfect up to the moment the signal is lost.
Analogue loses quality incrementally as the signal fades.
If you have a conversation in digital mode and walk away from each other, the moment you lose the signal you can switch over to analogue and still (just about) pick each other up and continue the conversation in analogue mode (but at this point it will be a poor audio quality).