VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

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M0PLT
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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by M0PLT » 28 Mar 2014, 15:41

northern35s wrote:I don't see a problem with asking for it, it would appear Ofcom suggested it. Will it be any different to that offered by PMR 446? I doubt it very much, low power handheld and built in antennas ;)
A proper CB service would allow the use of external aerials (home-base or mobile), 4 or 5 watts of power, maybe a mix of modulation, considerably more than 8 channels, and a choice of in-vehicle/base/hand-held radios. In theory, a properly specified VHF CB service would essentially kill off PMR446; or due to the radios being mega cheap, remain the preserve of kids playing around.

I am intrigued by the German company suggesting type-approval of their radios. A UHF service, like the Australian system, would be quick to deploy as there is already a ready market of kit. Sadly, the Aussie allocation sits on UHF (Band IV) TV channel 21, which is now running one of the HD multiplexes from a number of TV transmitters, and unlikely to be moved. I am not sure they could type-approve VHF radios if no definitions of a service exists. I would assume we need to ask for the spectrum, then lobby for what the service should allow before type-approval documents are drawn up?!
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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by Windy_Miller » 28 Mar 2014, 15:46

From the initial post in this thread, it wasn't OFCOM that suggested it - It was one of the responses in the Call for Input. So someone suggested it to OFCOM, and they have merely reproduced it as an example of what has been asked for.

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by ChelseaCat » 28 Mar 2014, 16:53

Windy_Miller wrote:From the initial post in this thread, it wasn't OFCOM that suggested it - It was one of the responses in the Call for Input. So someone suggested it to OFCOM, and they have merely reproduced it as an example of what has been asked for.
So if they have reproduced it as an example to me that says they would really consider it. Dont think they would give something as an example if it had no chance what so ever. :D Its all pie in the sky at the minute but with a real chance of a favourable outcome for us

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by Adriano9966 » 28 Mar 2014, 17:41

delboyonline wrote:SSB/AM on 27Mhz wont come into its own until the channels are much quieter. Long range groundwave will then become possible.


:) A very fair point at the moment we are at or leaving the cusp of the 11 year solar cycle
northern35s wrote:I don't see a problem with asking for it, it would appear Ofcom suggested it. Will it be any different to that offered by PMR 446? I doubt it very much, low power handheld and built in antennas ;)
:D Yes I agree Stephen there is nothing wrong with asking and the very worse that could happen is they just say no .I am feeling quite positive and I think the regulator could even pleasantly surprise us!

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by RadioPixie » 28 Mar 2014, 18:26

G8YMW wrote:
Thats why lorry drivers and farmers don't use CB anymore. Its been superseded!
As far as farmers go, this statement is so wrong. The number of tractors I see CB aerials (Mostly springers/orbiters)
Also the farm where we reckon to have our caravan uses CBs in the fields. The other day I helped them with spreading fertiliser. The farmer's son spreading and me with the loader tractor and trailer full of big bags. For that sort of work a 2-way radio is an order of magnitude more convenient than a mobile phone.
As far as truckers go in the main CBs are now rare but tipper lorries have them.
As I have said earlier in this thread, I can see farmers and agricultural contractors making good use of it. No Olga QRM, no SSB QRM and a far better range (Perhaps not over the lumpy stuff) But if I got into Buxton repeater from Knipton (West of Grantham) with 1.5 watts to a 19 inch whip on a handheld.

As for SSB/AM bringing folks back to 27 MHz? I cannot see it at all. Certainly not on Mids. It will be like in the early 80's High noise floor which means no range. ie You MIGHT reach the next village before your contact is swamped by foreign QRM
Same in Cornwall. Many tractors with CB radio on board. A few truckers with CB, but not like in the past of course. Many local logistic firms are using CB for casual driver-to-driver comms. Old folk keep in contact in the evening as daytime is too noisy. Many local 4x4's have CB, which some have just got a general PMR licence at 5 watts erp.
73 from Dave the Pixie - 26CT052 - G7OPC - CB & Ham Radioaficionado

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by ChelseaCat » 28 Mar 2014, 18:50

I noticed about 18 month ago I had a regular taxi job taking me beyond Durham area from South Tyneside area, Lots of lorry drivers were using 2metre amateur radio band, Im sure lots more would use 2metre CB radio if it was allowed, smaller antenna on a high vehicle etc, I can see it being a very popular choice.

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by RadioPixie » 28 Mar 2014, 20:45

ChelseaCat wrote:I noticed about 18 month ago I had a regular taxi job taking me beyond Durham area from South Tyneside area, Lots of lorry drivers were using 2metre amateur radio band, Im sure lots more would use 2metre CB radio if it was allowed, smaller antenna on a high vehicle etc, I can see it being a very popular choice.
Totally agree you CC. If there was a VHF CB system, the antenna at a 1/4 wave would be 19 inches in length (if near 2m band for example), which is small but effective. Unlike a 11m CB antenna of 19 inch (1.5 feet/48 cm) in length which would be grossly ineffective, and bandwidth too narrow for proper UK & EU coverage.
73 from Dave the Pixie - 26CT052 - G7OPC - CB & Ham Radioaficionado

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by M3VBS » 28 Mar 2014, 20:59

simonthewizard wrote:
delboyonline wrote:Sounds spot on to me!
A German CB Company told today they are type approving there locked version of 446-Freenet radio for UK. Takes 6-8 months so maybe they know something that nobody knows at all.
Simon, D-freenet, am I right in thinking its 153mhz? What's the output allowed, channels etc? Mobile / home base use?

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by toby » 28 Mar 2014, 23:21

hi,

german freenet: 149mHz, only handhelds with 500mW output.
but much users do it with 2m mobiles and diamond X-xy antennas.

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by Oggy » 29 Mar 2014, 14:07

I have read this debate with much interest and whilst I will always promote the 11 meter Citizen's Band inline with Europe and wish this band to grow.
It's where my own personal interest has alway (and will always) be. :D
I think the UK operators gaining some of the unused VHF spectrum is a superb idea.
As others have point out we lost the 934MHZ band back in the late 90's to mobile phone companies (at the time).
I believe there could be mileage in this idea.
Due to this I will contact the relevent people I need to, and put the point over and see what I receive.....I will keep everyone informed with my findings.
Obviously the question can only be asked on behalf of UK users and I can't promise anything
But it's got to be worth a shot for sure.

Dave
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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by ChelseaCat » 29 Mar 2014, 14:37

;) Brilliant Dave lets all keep our fingers crossed for a good outcome :D

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by Adriano9966 » 29 Mar 2014, 15:41

Oggy wrote: I think the UK operators gaining some of the unused VHF spectrum is a superb idea.
As others have point out we lost the 934MHZ band back in the late 90's to mobile phone companies (at the time).
I believe there could be mileage in this idea.
Due to this I will contact the relevent people I need to, and put the point over and see what I receive.....I will keep everyone informed with my findings.
Obviously the question can only be asked on behalf of UK users and I can't promise anything
But it's got to be worth a shot for sure.

Dave
:D Well done Dave .I think we actually stand a chance of getting this and with you behind us our chances have just increased

Fingers crossed for a good outcome ;)

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by GeeFull » 30 Mar 2014, 11:43

As you might glean from the user name, I am a "G" full.......I know arghh spit in some circles! :D
I however have no problems with CB use, and think the forth coming inclusion of an all mode allocation is long overtime!
On the successful aquisition of a VHF CB "licence free" allocation, it is a laudible hope, and if it shold ever be granted, would nicely fill the gap in raedily available licence free operation, betwen the current high HF, namely 11 meters, and the 446 UHF allocation.
It would have its own quirks benefits and pitfalls, admittingly, but for many would prove very useful, for many of the reasons mentioned before.
Only thing to remember is, as with any "Ofcom" granted, "licence free" allocation, it would no doubt come with VERY stringent rules and limitations applied, and they would almost certainly mention the dreaded "type approved equipment" etc.
So first off you would need enough current manufacturers willing to supply said "UK type approved" VHF equipment, and secondly knowing Ofcom, it may well be greatly down in specs from what might be reasonably desired!
This is of course assuming they even consider it viable!
Two reasons they might not, first the extension to the already established amateur 2 meter band, is only on a NOV "full licence" restricted basis, and is only temporary whilst others do not require it, and is intended for use for specific purposes, not chit chat!
And also certain "spot" frequencies within it will be "no go", and even that allocation has taken in depth consultation, debate, and input from RSGB to establish!
So they are not just handing out spare VHF spectrum "willy nilly" cos its all suddenly available! ;)

Secondly they consider that the aquisition of foundation licence standard is currently at a level that 99% of applicants could with a smidgen of effort accomplish, and as such instantly gain access to a vast spectrum of frequencies, at more power than the dedicated VHF CB one would probably enjoy, and in its scope already covers the part of the VHF spectrum!

So if you look at it from their point of view, it is already available, at minimum effort, so wheres the incentive to them to provide an altenative avenue?
Just saying! ;)

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by M0PLT » 30 Mar 2014, 13:01

I would have to argue that the Foundation licence is not available to anyone and everyone. There are disabled, dyslexic, and elderly (for example) who might like to use a radio system to communicate, but see no reason to take an exam and the associated costs with doing so. Many might not be physically capable of taking an exam, let alone find a club willing/able to train them. In my part of Bedfordshire, none of the local RA clubs offer training so I was forced over to Cambridge Uni, who were very accommodating, but the trips cost me in time and fuel - on top of the exam costs. Many would find that a huge barrier and would quickly lose interest.
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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by GeeFull » 30 Mar 2014, 13:20

M0PLT wrote:I would have to argue that the Foundation licence is not available to anyone and everyone. There are disabled, dyslexic, and elderly (for example) who might like to use a radio system to communicate, but see no reason to take an exam and the associated costs with doing so. Many might not be physically capable of taking an exam, let alone find a club willing/able to train them. In my part of Bedfordshire, none of the local RA clubs offer training so I was forced over to Cambridge Uni, who were very accommodating, but the trips cost me in time and fuel - on top of the exam costs. Many would find that a huge barrier and would quickly lose interest.
I fully appreciate the above sentiments, but having dealt with Ofcom, and their predescessors the DTI, they see minorities, as just that!
Surely you are not saying the "bulk" of prospective VHF users would fall into that bracket?
And powers that be being powers that be, they require all the "I's" dotted, and "T's" crossed from a "technicaly valid" point of view, before they even consider spectrum allocation!
And would be quick to point out the already available "alternatives", which we all know of!
Wish lists, and even petitions, more often than not fall on deaf ears!
Back in the pre 27/81 days there was a group called NATCALCIBOR I think it was, they proposed just 40 channels of 27 mHz but all mode, they submitted a lot of technical data, much furnished by sympathetic amateurs, and their appeal fell on deaf ears!
A year or so later, the FM only CB27/81 system was rolled out......nothing even close to the "Wish list"!
And how long then before the "mid block" was released, again FM only, despite appeals for AM/FM European compatibility!
Then how many years have gone by before this latest proposed multi-mode allocation?
All I am saying is for any proposal to be successful, and "seriously considered", you had better furnish some solidly grounded technical reasons for them even to consider it, as they rarely respond well to "Wish lists" and "desires", no matter how many people submit them! ;)

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