VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by M0PLT » 03 Apr 2014, 08:05

ChelseaCat wrote:Just hunting around the net looking for anything else to do with this subject, came across this ...........

Not sure who the Questions and answers are aimed at TBH

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binari ... hheld1.pdf
From the PDF:
VHF Citizens' Band / A “personal use” radio service:
There are technological opportunities in creating a VHF CB and Personal Use radio system from
scratch. Technology is improved since the 20 channel 934 MHz CB service was closed to make
way for GSM mobile telephones.
Digital modes will allow a more spectrally efficient service. The twenty analogue 12.5 kHz
channels proposed for a VHF CB service will be able to accommodate forty 6.25 kHz channels of
voice if the digital technology offered by the Land Mobile manufacturers such as Icom and
Kenwood were used. A new CB service can start with 20 analogue 12.5 kHz channels, then
migrate to 40 digital when the technology becomes cheaper, or start with a 20 digital channel
from the outset.
Slightly alarming that the individual's response is suggesting proprietary closed-source digital modes from the likes of Icom. CB does not need to be another D-Star system! A lack of manufacturer choice, and the high price that goes with that, will kill the idea stone dead!
'The Electron' & M0PLT

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by Windy_Miller » 03 Apr 2014, 09:41

M0PLT wrote:Slightly alarming that the individual's response is suggesting proprietary closed-source digital modes from the likes of Icom. CB does not need to be another D-Star system! A lack of manufacturer choice, and the high price that goes with that, will kill the idea stone dead!
Not surprising that digital is being proposed. And before I continue, no, I have not made any submissions to OFCOM. Mainly as I think the whole idea is a dead duck anyway!

Aside from that, FM is an old technology - Its what was introduced more than 30 years ago when 27 and 934 MHz were allocated. Many users have now gone digital, and considering FM analogue in this day and age is almost ridiculous.

Another thread on here has already suggested, albeit inadvertently, why OFCOM should not consider FM. One user has posted that "several people have contacted him, anxious to try out these frequencies" - This suggest a number of things;

1. They have equipment capable of operating on those frequencies - Let me guess, Baofeng....
2. They do not hold any licences to operate said equipment on VHF (or more likely, at all)
3. They are happy to operate outwith regulation

Now, can you really see OFCOM agreeing to all of that, and saying, yeah, just go ahead and operate your widebanded equipment as you see fit? Nope.

Digital is already out there. There are a number of manufacturers making digital gear of varying costs. You can readily buy Chinese digital UHF handhelds for less than £100. Anyone care to recall how much CB sets were when they came out legally in 1981, and express it compared to that of the Chinese offerings? If you wish, you could also correct for inflation / cost of living increases. In a nutshell, digital now is cheaper than analogue was more than 30 years ago, and will only continue to drop. By the time any new allocation was released, digital Chinese handhelds will probably be falling out of Cornflakes packets.

Digital would be so much more useful than analogue. Without the privacy they get with mobile phones, there is little chance of attracting the interest of many. That leaves only those that are happy to be eavesdropped upon, significantly reducing the potential number of users, and increasing the proportion of the audience available to the bucket mouths. With a £20 Baofeng and a legitimate band to use it in, analogue would simply become a bucketmouths charter. 6 months after introduction, any legitimate users would be complaining that "its just like 27 MHz" - Except that we can understand what he is saying, unlike Olga, and it doesn't get any better in the evening"

With digital, there are many prospects to semi regulate the band, and eliminate abuse. There could even be a different data only control channel introduced, that allows radios to forward data between themselves, completely outwith the normal user channels. With little cost, OFCOM can then monitor activity through the data channel(s) and stun or kill radios of offending users. Its not outwith the wit of man to have OFCOM transmit a stun / kill signal from London, and it to propagate through the country, radio to radio until it reaches the offending user, and he is "shutdown", either until his penalty period expires, his fine is paid, or permanently! Thus keeping the service free and decent for legitimate users. If as many people use this service, as some on here seem to predict, then with digital, OFCOM could readily control it country wide, without the need to build any infrastructure. Although thats not beyond their capabilities either.

Even in the highly unlikely even that OFCOM agree to any new allocation, I think its extremely unlikely that this will become something that gives people the justification to own a Baofeng. They have already shown they cannot be trusted with widebanded Chinese radios, either through naivety or recklessness. There are plenty threads on here that exhibit both.

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by delboyonline » 03 Apr 2014, 13:23

VHF CB Radio logo to promote our efforts:

Large:

Image

Small:

Image

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by ChelseaCat » 03 Apr 2014, 13:42

Nice one :D

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by GeeFull » 03 Apr 2014, 17:20

Nice badges/logo's.....I wouldn't be running too many patches, tee shirts, and badges off just yet though, they could be a swine to get rid of should the allocation not come to fruition! ;)
I really hope an allocation can be sorted, but as a boards newcomer, casual observer, I have trawled these threads and see people openly stating they currently use non type approved equipment for CB, 446, whatever, people posting that they have set up "parrot repeaters" on 446, completely contrary to rules and regulations, and even suggestions of a bit of pre-emptive "vhf" testing......cos they simply can't wait!
Now to me that looks bad, but think what it would look like to an Ofcom representitive!
One trawl around these threads and he would quickly come to the conclusion...."These guy's just can't be trusted with rules, regulations, and sticking to type approval"........which would be swiftly followed by a large, thick red felt tip line, through the VHF CB "proposal" currently sat in front of him!
I hope your hopes are satisfied, I truely do, but seriously guys, sometimes, you are your own worse enemy! ;)

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by ChelseaCat » 03 Apr 2014, 17:32

I think members are just excited that this might happen I know I am but if you read through most members have said dont pirate the VHF bands their is no need we know what its all about and how it works, these things have been explained and this is what the radio hobby is all about, helping and educating.

I agree some people leave themselves wide open but I still feel their is a real chance of this happening, if it doesnt then we lost nothing if it does then we have gained something brilliant. I know alot of people have said if you want VHF then go get a licence I have a licence BUT I would really love an informal way to communicate with friends and make new friends.

lets just see what happens and keep our fingers crossed, well those that want it keep their fingers crossed anyway lol.

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by GeeFull » 03 Apr 2014, 17:45

ChelseaCat wrote:I think members are just excited that this might happen I know I am but if you read through most members have said dont pirate the VHF bands their is no need we know what its all about and how it works, these things have been explained and this is what the radio hobby is all about, helping and educating.

I agree some people leave themselves wide open but I still feel their is a real chance of this happening, if it doesnt then we lost nothing if it does then we have gained something brilliant. I know alot of people have said if you want VHF then go get a licence I have a licence BUT I would really love an informal way to communicate with friends and make new friends.

lets just see what happens and keep our fingers crossed, well those that want it keep their fingers crossed anyway lol.
I get from your posts that you are very keen and genuinely excited!
As I know others are too!
Unfortunately the general "overview" any authorities have of a situation and its merits, are reflected by the "average" current consensus, and attitude within the spectrum use already allocated!
If and when these sorts of bad/illegal practices come to their general notice, and I am sure they already will have done in many instances, it can "colour" any descisions they may have to take on future extra spectrum allocation!
Afterall the "new" system will be as equally open to the currently allocated spectrum consistant "abusers" and rule benders, as it is to the "genuinely willing to comply" prospective perfectly good candidates!
You have to look at it from their point of view! ;)

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by Adriano9966 » 03 Apr 2014, 20:08

GeeFull wrote:
Unfortunately the general "overview" any authorities have of a situation and its merits, are reflected by the "average" current consensus, and attitude within the spectrum use already allocated!
If and when these sorts of bad/illegal practices come to their general notice, and I am sure they already will have done in many instances, it can "colour" any descisions they may have to take on future extra spectrum allocation!
Afterall the "new" system will be as equally open to the currently allocated spectrum consistant "abusers" and rule benders, as it is to the "genuinely willing to comply" prospective perfectly good candidates!
You have to look at it from their point of view! ;)
:) With all due respect O.M. how do you know this represents the point of view or indeed the policy of ofcom ?Are you a part of ofcom for example? Might I offer an alternative(more positive)assesment of the situation .Perhaps it might be that ofcom recognises that it is managing the spectrum on behalf of the UK and would wish to represent the best interests of uk citizens by considering an allocation for citizens band radio on the newly available spectrum??
:| The abuse of the spectrum is an all too familiar problem in ours and other countries be it on citizens band or 2metre repeators.But just as in the case of spectrum abuse on amatuer radio would it be then appropriate for the UK regulator to deny the proposed 1mhz expansion to the two metre band because there are a few people who are openly abusing the service? I think not and surely it is the case for better enforcement and not a denial of services to the law abiding majority of people.

I disagree with you and with no disrespect intended I also think your above comments represent your point of view and not any specific policy of ofcom

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by RadioPixie » 03 Apr 2014, 20:46

And not forgetting that if it wasn't for people protesting and using illegally imported American AM CB radios in the first place, it would of been even longer for CB to be officially recognised in this country.

I also think that much of the abuse on UHF and especially around 446 MHz may be a fraction of what it is IF there was an alternative. Yes an alternative may be abused as well, but at least not affecting other users.

May be some people have tunnel vision or robotic automatons or just so in love with state of the art technology, that they are blind to the fact that PMR446 is seen be many as a suitable alternative to 27 MHz especially using more power and larger antennas. Not condoning such activities, but highlighting that it's a reflection of a need for a VHF or UHF CB style system, and 1/2w erp handies isn't going to do that job.
73 from Dave the Pixie - 26CT052 - G7OPC - CB & Ham Radioaficionado

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by Windy_Miller » 03 Apr 2014, 21:26

RadioPixie wrote:Yes an alternative may be abused as well, but at least not affecting other users.
:lol: :lol: "Knock it up a band Sam" - And lo and behold, there we have them in the marine band! :o :roll:

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by Windy_Miller » 03 Apr 2014, 21:31

RadioPixie wrote:May be some people have tunnel vision or robotic automatons or just so in love with state of the art technology, ...
Do you use a Sinclair ZX81 to make your posts on here? If not, why not?

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by RadioPixie » 03 Apr 2014, 22:01

Yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :roll:
73 from Dave the Pixie - 26CT052 - G7OPC - CB & Ham Radioaficionado

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by GeeFull » 04 Apr 2014, 08:10

RadioPixie wrote:And not forgetting that if it wasn't for people protesting and using illegally imported American AM CB radios in the first place, it would of been even longer for CB to be officially recognised in this country.

I also think that much of the abuse on UHF and especially around 446 MHz may be a fraction of what it is IF there was an alternative. Yes an alternative may be abused as well, but at least not affecting other users.

May be some people have tunnel vision or robotic automatons or just so in love with state of the art technology, that they are blind to the fact that PMR446 is seen be many as a suitable alternative to 27 MHz especially using more power and larger antennas. Not condoning such activities, but highlighting that it's a reflection of a need for a VHF or UHF CB style system, and 1/2w erp handies isn't going to do that job.
I can't argue that it was the endeavours of the early, illegaly imported AM operators, that bought to the attention of the authorities a possible need for a CB band allocation within the UK! (After initialy trying to stamp it out with a large foot!)
However, it was also a bit of a "double edged sword", which ended up working against them as well!
Governments rarely take kindly to a flood of uncontrolled illegaly imported, or illegaly used, "anything", plus the fact they have not had the chance to do a couple of things Governments just "love" to do, namely rake in tax from the sales, and place a suitable "Stamp of type approval" upon it!
Which is exactly why when the Government did eventuay "cave in", they went out of their way to ensure the equipment currently "doing the rounds" was rendered, from a legality, and technical point of view, virtualy useless! (You could still pirate on it of course, risk was yours!)
IE they introduced a UK FM system, on non standard FCC incompatible frequencies, which as I recall the country was then "stuck" with for quite a number of years, before even the mid block was eventualy allowed, also only on FM!
I would also add, illegal use of anything anywhere, is never a garanteed indicator of a need for a legal alternative or that it will form any sort of cure to the current problem!
CB 27/81 did little to curtail the continued importation and illegal use of non type approved AM and Multimode CB's, why do you think a VHF band would provide any form of cure to some of the current "elsewhere" illegal activities?

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by RadioPixie » 04 Apr 2014, 11:23

Thank you Gee for the CB history lesson.

Illegal CB activity isn't a just a UK phenomena, it's worldwide! One look at the alpha tango division listings demonstrates that ;)

One of the problems of 27 MHz that it wasn't satisfying enough for regular local use and it made people think that it could be more ;)

Here's a fact: the radio industry and amateur radio operators is supporting illegal activity, in the supply, service and modification of equipment. Poor self-regulation!!

But I will uphold what I'm saying whether the naysayers like it or not, I seriously believe that a proper VHF or UHF CB system would work, that even though there will be some abuse (but then so has ham radio) it would be minimal. There would be more likely antenna regs broken (whoppy do's) and a bit of tweating of the ol' 5 watts (not the end of the world), or the use of higher powered equipment (whoopy do's, shouldn't they be clean for business PMR or amateur use in the first place) I doubt so much that amplifiers would be used as higher the frequency, the higher the cost. Unless of course an amateur sells his/her old unwanted 50 watt amp secondhand to a CB'er ;)
Last edited by RadioPixie on 04 Apr 2014, 14:30, edited 1 time in total.
73 from Dave the Pixie - 26CT052 - G7OPC - CB & Ham Radioaficionado

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Re: VHF CB Radio/Freenet in the UK?

Post by GeeFull » 04 Apr 2014, 11:47

RadioPixie wrote:Thank you Gee for the CB history lesson.

Illegal CB activity isn't a just a UK phenomena, it's worldwide! One look at the alpha tango division listings demonstrates that ;)

One of the problems of 27 MHz that it wasn't satisfying enough for regular local use and it made people think that it could be more ;)

He's a fact: the radio industry and amateur radio operators is supporting illegal activity, in the supply, service and modification of equipment. Poor self-regulation!!
But I will uphold what I'm saying whether the naysayers like it or not, I seriously believe that a proper VHF or UHF CB system would work, that even though there will be some abuse (but then so has ham radio) it would be minimal. There would be more likely antenna regs broken (whoppy do's) and a bit of tweating of the ol' 5 watts (not the end of the world), or the use of higher powered equipment (whoopy do's, shouldn't they be clean for business PMR or amateur use in the first place) I doubt so much that amplifiers would be used as higher the frequency, the higher the cost. Unless of course an amateur sells his/her old unwanted 50 watt amp secondhand to a CB'er ;)
Firstly yes it isn't just a UK phenomena, I agree with you!
Some of the other countries eventualy got a system legalised, fairly close to what they wanted, the UK Government being what it is, chose to implement something incompatible, that noone had asked for! But thats the UK for you! ;)
However they are at last soon to at least attempt to rectify that! (But how many will embrace it, and how many just stay on, and around 555?)

I agree 27 mHz doesn't satisfy the needs for local reliable comms, and I actualy do, like you, believe a VHF, or better UHF spec system, would be far more viable as a form of reasonably local, plus a little further under the right conditions, form of communications!

The radio industry does not "support" illegal activity, no more than E-Bay does!
At the end of the day, what frequencies their equipment gets pressed into service on, is strictly the responsibility of the end "user"!
Be that legaly employed, or illegaly employed!

On the "there would be some abuse", I think that would almost be inevitable!
Just reading threads elsewhere, rules and regulations are not high on the priority list of many exponents of the hobby!
But lines do have to be drawn, whats the alternative?
Open season on any part of the spectrum you choose to "occupy", what a wonderful world of peacful, cooperative radio etiquette, that would lead to! ;)

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